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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Kacie Jenkins, Head of Marketing for Claude Code at Anthropic and former SVP Marketing at Sendoso.
Summary: Marketing isn’t about cramming creativity into a spreadsheet, and Kacie’s journey proves it. She took on last-touch attribution, broke free from narrow metrics, and built a system that told the whole story, one where sales and marketing actually worked together. It wasn’t flashy; it was months of unsexy foundational work that led to record-breaking results. Kacie’s advice is to stop obsessing over proving your worth with perfect data. Focus on collaboration, long-term strategies, and building something so good it proves itself.
Jump to a Section
- It’s Time to Break Free from Last Touch Attribution
- What’s the Best Way to Prove What Drives Revenue in Marketing?
- How to Convince Leadership to Rethink Measurement
- How to Use Incrementality in Everyday Marketing
- How to Make the Case for Brand Investments
- Working for a CEO Who Doesn’t Believe in Marketing
- Key Traits to Look for When Hiring Problem-Solving Candidates
About Kacie
- Kacie started her career as a recording artist for 6 years where she recorded and released 2 top 30’s singles on country radio
- She transitioned to FANDOM as Marketing Manager where she helped build and scale entertainment and gaming communities
- She then shifted to consumer tech and worked at Roku where she helped take their streaming stick to market
- She later joined Fastly when they were still a tiny startup and was eventually promoted to VP of Marketing while helping them scale to $200M in ARR and a massive IPO
- She moved on to a few other VP of marketing stints at Ace Hotel and then Sourcegraph
- Today Kacie is Senior Vice President of Marketing at Sendoso, the top gifting and direct mail platform for revenue teams
It’s Time to Break Free from Last Touch Attribution
Kacie has strong opinions about last touch attribution and its role in marketing, calling it both misguided and overused. She recounts a memorable example where a company’s finance team mandated that every marketing touchpoint be unique, forbidding multiple efforts for a single account. The result was a fragmented strategy, with marketing forced to isolate efforts rather than integrate them—a scenario she describes as fundamentally broken. This, she says, reflects a wider misunderstanding of marketing’s role in driving success.
In her experience, marketing is often held to an unrealistic standard that no other department faces. “No one questions whether a sales team should exist,” Kacie points out, yet marketers are repeatedly asked to prove their value in isolation. This obsession with single-point attribution—whether first or last touch—reduces complex buyer journeys to simplistic, unrealistic models. She likens it to sports, where success is measured by the contributions of the entire team, not just the final goal or play. In marketing, the same principle applies: campaigns succeed when brand, product, sales, and customer experience work cohesively.
Kacie highlights how marketers often agree to flawed measurement practices under intense job pressure. Many leaders, she notes, demand immediate, trackable results and dismiss longer-term investments like brand building. When these short-sighted strategies fail, the blame lands on the marketing team, perpetuating a destructive cycle. This became especially apparent during the pandemic, when companies slashed budgets for brand and integrated marketing, only to see their performance suffer months later.
At its core, the problem stems from a demand to quantify marketing in ways that are convenient rather than meaningful. Kacie insists that attribution models like last touch can provide insights but have been misused to force marketing into a demand capture role that undervalues its broader impact. Effective marketing, she argues, cannot succeed in a vacuum—it depends on the health and alignment of the entire organization.
Key takeaway: Attribution models like last touch offer insights but become problematic when used in isolation. Marketing thrives on collaboration across teams, long-term investments, and integrated strategies. Simplistic measurement frameworks undermine this by reducing success to isolated metrics, which fail to capture the bigger picture. Focus on fostering collaboration and investing in holistic strategies rather than chasing immediate, trackable wins.
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What’s the Best Way to Prove What Drives Revenue in Marketing?
Kacie’s candid take on the challenges of attribution didn’t stop there. She explains that board members and leadership often seek simple answers, asking, “What drove the most revenue?” This, she notes, is rarely a question with a singular answer, and it certainly doesn’t lie solely in the last touchpoint.
Her approach combines every available data point, UTMs, self-reported attribution, and multi-touch models, to create a comprehensive picture. This isn’t about assigning credit to one channel or tactic but understanding the collective influence of all touchpoints. For instance, at Sendoso, Kacie leveraged this holistic perspective to reinvigorate outbound sales. By investing in trust-building, strong branding, and thoughtful partnerships, the team shifted outbound calls from cold to warm, creating an environment where sales and marketing aligned seamlessly. The results were tangible, but proving causality required a deeper story, not just a simple report.
She recalls challenging her finance team’s reliance on last-touch data. When presenting a report that suggested “more direct traffic” as the solution, she asked bluntly, “What does that even mean?” This moment underscored how reductive metrics fail to capture the true impact of marketing efforts. By shifting the focus to sales-qualified opportunities and long-term patterns, she built trust with stakeholders and steered conversations toward what truly drives growth.
Kacie emphasizes that this broader view isn’t fast or easy, and it requires fighting against short-term thinking. Marketers must advocate for strategies that don’t immediately show up in last-touch reports but are essential for sustainable growth. She also draws from B2C insights, where buying decisions often happen long before measurable touchpoints, reminding us that customers’ journeys rarely follow a predictable path.
Key takeaway: Attribution isn’t about isolating success to one channel or tactic. By combining multiple data sources and focusing on long-term causality, marketers can tell a more accurate story. This approach builds trust with leadership, aligns teams, and justifies investments that might not show immediate ROI but are crucial for sustainable success.
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How to Convince Leadership to Rethink Measurement
Kacie explains that driving change in marketing attribution and measurement requires aligning cross-functional teams and proving value over time. When she joined Sendoso, the disconnect between sales and marketing created distrust, and outdated metrics like MQLs dominated conversations. To address this, she set clear expectations with leadership: changes would be foundational, require significant investment, and take time to show results. This up-front agreement ensured her efforts had initial backing, though challenges arose as the process unfolded.
A crucial part of the transformation was bridging the gap between marketing and finance. Kacie worked with a finance partner who embraced curiosity, seeking to understand marketing’s perspective by educating himself through webinars and discussions. This mutual respect and collaboration were essential for aligning goals and building trust. She demonstrated that her approach wasn’t about gaming numbers or securing credit but about laying a foundation for sustainable growth.
Despite initial alignment, skepticism crept in as foundational work—cleaning up Salesforce fields, rethinking sales stages, and redefining metrics—took longer to yield visible results. Kacie emphasizes the importance of perseverance during this phase. Companies often lack the patience for foundational changes, cutting leaders loose before results manifest. However, at Sendoso, her team stayed the course. By fostering collaboration across sales, customer experience, and marketing, they focused on what truly made accounts successful, from acquisition to retention and expansion.
The turning point came when her team began seeing record-breaking quarters, a result of months of methodical investment. By prioritizing shared goals over siloed metrics, they moved past the traditional battles over attribution. Instead, they focused on replicating success through integrated strategies and customer insights. The shift wasn’t about assigning credit but understanding what contributed to growth and scaling those efforts.
Key takeaway: Transforming marketing metrics and driving alignment requires clear expectations, trust-building, and patience. Focus on foundational systems and collaborative processes to create long-term success. The shift may feel slow, but aligning cross-functional teams around shared goals leads to sustainable growth and stronger outcomes over time.
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How to Use Incrementality in Everyday Marketing
Kacie approaches incrementality with pragmatism, emphasizing the need for balance between proving impact and trusting experience. The concept of incrementality—measuring the true causal impact of marketing efforts through experiments like control and treatment groups—is compelling in theory. Yet, for many B2B teams, the reality is far more complex. Achieving statistically significant results often requires a level of volume and resources that smaller teams simply don’t have. For Kacie, the obsession with assigning precise dollar value to every effort risks undermining trust and eroding morale.
She highlights an important caution: unlike other teams like HR or sales, marketing is disproportionately scrutinized for proving value. Sales isn’t asked to break down the ROI of every email or call. When marketing teams are forced into this level of detail, it often leads to wasted time and diminished productivity. Instead, Kacie believes in leveraging a mix of learned experience, gut instinct, and high-level data to guide decisions. For routine programs where success is well-established, she avoids excessive analysis. The focus shifts to ensuring execution is sharp and targeted.
When making larger bets or testing new strategies, however, Kacie is intentional about building in tracking and reporting to evaluate outcomes. For example, her team at Sendoso uses direct mail and gifting, a strategy they already know works. Instead of questioning its effectiveness, they focus on refining execution—targeting the right audiences, creating memorable experiences, and integrating the strategy with other campaigns. When experimenting with unproven ideas, the team prioritizes gathering actionable insights to decide whether to scale or pivot.
Kacie also acknowledges the importance of storytelling when presenting outcomes to leadership. By framing short- and long-term goals within a cohesive narrative, she bridges the gap between marketing and non-marketing stakeholders. This approach builds trust and ensures alignment across teams without requiring exhaustive proof for every single decision.
Key takeaway: Marketing teams should avoid getting bogged down in over-measuring routine programs. Focus efforts on proving value for high-risk bets and use trusted experience to guide well-established strategies. Build trust through storytelling and aligning short- and long-term goals to help stakeholders understand the bigger picture. This approach ensures a balance between data-driven decisions and efficient execution.
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How to Make the Case for Brand Investments
Kacie tackles the challenge of selling a brand investment to senior leadership by avoiding the pitfalls of traditional framing. She points out that using the term “brand” can trigger skepticism, so she reframed the discussion around correcting flawed assumptions about market perception. Instead of leading with the abstract value of brand, Kacie presented data-backed insights from customer feedback, community discussions, and third-party reviews to demonstrate gaps between internal perceptions and external realities.
By grounding the case in concrete examples, Kacie showed how misaligned messaging hindered the company’s ability to attract the right audience. For instance, potential buyers misunderstood the flexibility of gifting solutions, assuming it was only viable for massive enterprises or required extensive data. This disconnect made it clear that the issue wasn’t visual branding or the website but fundamental messaging and market understanding.
To gain leadership buy-in, Kacie involved her executive team in content creation and audience engagement. By equipping them to share insights on LinkedIn and participate in community discussions, they directly experienced the impact of better positioning. This included receiving inbound leads, having meaningful conversations at events, and observing tangible improvements in pipeline metrics. The team’s involvement also fostered alignment, as leaders saw the value of engaging authentically with prospects and customers.
Kacie’s approach extended to events, where she redefined participation beyond traditional booth setups. Instead, the company curated experiences, integrated campaigns, and meaningful partnerships to demonstrate expertise and facilitate networking. This holistic brand strategy allowed leadership to see the direct impact of investing in customer relationships, community building, and differentiated positioning.
Key takeaway: Reframe brand investments as solutions to concrete business problems. Ground the case in data, involve leadership in execution, and focus on strategies that show tangible outcomes. Authentic engagement, whether through content, events, or partnerships, demonstrates the value of branding while aligning stakeholders around its long-term benefits.
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Working for a CEO Who Doesn’t Believe in Marketing
Kacie shares a candid perspective on a common challenge for marketing leaders: working under CEOs who fundamentally misunderstand – or worse – fundamentally don’t believe in marketing. She emphasizes the importance of identifying these dynamics early, as some leaders (particularly those from analytical or engineering backgrounds) may not believe marketing should exist. These leaders often approach hiring a marketing leader as an experiment to prove their biases rather than as a strategic investment. Kacie strongly advises against taking roles where this skepticism is entrenched, as the uphill battle to gain trust and resources often makes meaningful progress impossible.
However, not all non-marketing CEOs are problematic. Kacie highlights the positive experiences of working with leaders who trust their hires, even if they lack marketing expertise. These leaders recognize their own strengths and weaknesses, delegate effectively, and provide space for their teams to succeed. She notes that her co-CEOs at Sendoso, though not marketers, brought valuable perspectives from engineering and sales while trusting her to lead the marketing function independently. This mutual respect fosters collaboration and enables teams to focus on execution rather than justifying their existence.
The real challenge, Kacie argues, arises with micromanaging leaders who can’t delegate or scale their responsibilities. She refers to this as “founder mode,” where leaders struggle to give up control or “hand off their Legos.” This mindset stifles growth, not only for marketing but for the entire organization. Effective leadership, Kacie stresses, involves empowering teams, replacing oneself in key roles, and focusing on scaling the business rather than fixating on individual contributions.
Kacie also points out that marketing often becomes a scapegoat when broader organizational issues arise. If trust erodes or the business struggles, marketing is frequently the first department blamed. She cautions leaders against this pattern, emphasizing that organizational challenges rarely stem from one function alone. Collaborative problem-solving and cross-departmental trust are crucial for sustainable growth.
Key takeaway: Vet potential leadership during interviews to identify if they trust marketing as a strategic function or view it with skepticism. Avoid roles where proving marketing’s value is a constant battle. Instead, seek environments with leaders who delegate, trust their teams, and focus on scaling the business through collaboration and mutual respect.
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Key Traits to Look for When Hiring Problem-Solving Candidates
Kacie prioritizes qualities like integrity, curiosity, and adaptability when hiring for her team, emphasizing the importance of natural problem-solvers who thrive in fast-paced, ambiguous environments. She values candidates who light up when discussing their ability to help others and those who can reflect honestly on past mistakes and their efforts to correct them. Her approach is designed to identify individuals who find satisfaction in solving meaningful problems and stepping outside their defined roles when needed.
During interviews, Kacie asks unconventional questions to uncover these traits. For instance, she inquires about the best gift candidates have ever given, which reveals how they think about others and whether they genuinely consider what matters to those around them. She also looks for language that highlights teamwork—whether candidates describe accomplishments with “we” or focus solely on “I.” This conversational style allows her to understand candidates’ values and how they approach challenges, both individually and as part of a team.
Kacie is particularly drawn to people who proactively address issues and take ownership of their work. She admires candidates who don’t wait for permission but instead identify problems, propose solutions, and execute them with confidence. This self-driven mindset aligns with her belief in empowering team members to take initiative, ensuring they feel supported rather than micromanaged.
At the same time, Kacie stresses the importance of leaders addressing hiring mistakes swiftly. When a hire isn’t the right fit, delaying action only harms the individual and the team. She advocates for quickly finding alternative roles or making necessary changes to maintain a productive and positive work environment. This decisiveness reflects her broader philosophy of building teams that can move quickly, solve problems effectively, and contribute to meaningful outcomes.
Key takeaway: Hire for curiosity, self-awareness, and a drive to solve problems. Look for candidates who value teamwork, take initiative, and find joy in improving the business. Address hiring mismatches quickly to protect team morale and maintain forward momentum. By focusing on these principles, leaders can build resilient teams that thrive in dynamic environments.
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How to Achieve True Fulfillment and Balance in Your Career
Kacie learned a critical lesson in her career: happiness doesn’t come from the end goal, like an IPO or other milestones. After spending years striving for Fastly’s IPO, she expected euphoria once it was achieved. Instead, she felt a sense of melancholy. Through reflection, she realized her fulfillment came from the people she worked with—the relationships, mutual respect, and shared experiences. For Kacie, the joy of marketing lies in working alongside individuals she admires and respects, regardless of whether they’re winning or losing.
Her personal life reflects the same principle. Kacie emphasizes the importance of creating spaces to disconnect and recharge. Gardening, morning walks, and spending time with her neighbors give her a restorative outlet. These moments allow her mind to wander and often lead to her best ideas. She makes self-care a priority, blocking time for activities that ground her and keep her connected to herself, ensuring she doesn’t sacrifice her well-being in the chaos of work and life.
Professionally, Kacie encourages others to put themselves out there, even if it feels daunting. Participating in events, webinars, and podcasts has allowed her to meet peers she’s long admired, turning them into friends and collaborators. Building a network of supportive, like-minded individuals has been invaluable in navigating challenges and combating feelings of isolation. She believes this kind of support system is essential, particularly in marketing, where loneliness can often creep in.
Kacie also stresses the importance of showing up for others. Whether it’s commenting on a peer’s webinar, sitting in the front row of a talk, or offering encouragement, small gestures of support can make a big difference. She credits those who’ve supported her in building the confidence to take on new challenges, and she’s committed to paying that forward to others in the community.
Key takeaway: Happiness and balance come from meaningful connections, restorative practices, and prioritizing personal well-being. Build a supportive network, make space for creative outlets, and show up for others to create an environment where growth and success feel sustainable and fulfilling.
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Episode Recap
Marketing often feels like forcing creativity into a spreadsheet. Kacie’s story is one of breaking out of that frustrating mold. Early in her career, she faced a finance team that insisted every marketing touchpoint stand alone, with no overlap allowed. The result was a fragmented, ineffective strategy that completely ignored how real buyer journeys work. That moment exposed a larger problem: the fixation on last-touch attribution. By focusing solely on the final interaction, companies were blind to the complex web of efforts that drive success.
At Sendoso, Kacie refused to accept these narrow views. Leadership wanted simple answers to impossible questions like, “What drove this revenue?” They expected clean, singular metrics, but she knew the reality was more intricate. Instead of trying to squeeze everything into one data point, she built a system that combined UTMs, multi-touch attribution, and self-reported insights. This approach didn’t just showcase marketing’s value; it rewired how teams worked together. Cold outbound calls turned into collaborative opportunities. Marketing and sales began functioning as a cohesive unit, and leadership started to understand the importance of a more holistic view.
This shift didn’t happen overnight. Kacie spent months fixing foundational issues: redefining outdated metrics, cleaning up data, and building trust with other departments. For a long time, there were no big wins, just steady groundwork. Eventually, it paid off. The team hit record-breaking quarters, and the results validated a patient, long-term strategy. The lesson was clear: aligning teams around shared goals creates results that outlast short-term fixes and quick wins.
Kacie also warns against over-complicating measurement. Incrementality experiments can be valuable, but for smaller teams, they’re often impractical. Instead of chasing precision for every campaign, she focuses on intuition and experience for established strategies while applying deeper measurement to high-risk projects. This balance keeps her team focused and avoids the burnout that comes with endless analysis.
Kacie’s leadership philosophy ties everything together. She reframes brand investments as solutions to real business problems, hires people who thrive in ambiguity, and avoids the trap of micromanaging. Her story is a reminder that marketing thrives when teams collaborate, leaders empower, and the focus shifts from proving value to building strategies that create lasting impact.
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Intro music by Wowa via Unminus
Cover art created with Midjourney (check out how)
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