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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Angela Cirrone, Senior Director, Marketing Operations at Optimizely.
Summary: Angela brings a fresh perspective to marketing operations, a key theme throughout the conversation is curiosity and how it helps boost your confidence and be a key lego block to a successful career. What makes her a unique leader is her experience being part of over a dozen acquisitions which came with over a hundred platform migrations and integrations. She’s developed a framework for platform migrations and a knack for evaluating software and building a stack with martech minimization in mind. We also navigated the convergence of martech and analytics in MOPs and pondered whether MOPs should report into GTM?
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- Boosting Confidence by Embracing Curiosity
- The Challenges and Opportunities of Numerous Migrations and Integrations
- Self-taught Lego Blocks of a Successful Marketing Ops Career
- How do you Identify People who are Deeply Curious?
- Navigating the Convergence of Martech and Analytics
- Should Marketing Ops Report into Marketing or GTM?
- Martech Minimization for Smaller Teams
- Data Operations and Data Enrichment
About Angela
- Angela started her career as a dental assistant before moving to academic advisory and then trying out dental sales
- She moved over to marketing – playing social media and community roles for various companies
- Eventually she found her way into Marketing Ops at Skill-soft where she learned Marketo and got her certification
- She later freelanced at CS2
- She then joined a proposal automation software company that would later get acquired by Upland Software, a portfolio of 25+ cloud apps, where she would eventually get promoted to Director of Marketing Operations
- She later took on the role of Senior Director of Marketing Ops and Demand Gen at Sauce Labs, a continuous test and error solution where she transformed the Ops function for enhanced efficiency and alignment with sales and GTM
- Today she’s Senior Director of Marketing Operations at Optimizely, an enterprise digital experience platform
Boosting Confidence by Embracing Curiosity
Angela reflects on her initial days at Optimizely, surrounded by experts in marketing operations. She didn’t start out knowing all the answers. Instead, she focused on moving challenges forward, a method she credits for easing her entry into a field filled with experienced professionals. Angela quickly realized the power of not knowing everything but having the skills to find out.
She champions the idea of empowerment through curiosity within her team. This approach shifts the emphasis from having instant solutions to developing the ability to explore and tackle problems efficiently. Angela believes that when a marketer faces a new issue, the goal shouldn’t be to solve it immediately but to start unraveling it bit by bit.
Angela suggests that anyone can build confidence by being inquisitive and resourceful. This means enhancing one’s skills in using tools like AI and Google, and tapping into a network of knowledgeable peers. This skillset turns daunting challenges into a series of smaller, more manageable tasks.
She openly shares her moments of doubt, reassuring us that even seasoned professionals feel uncertain at times. What matters is how they handle these moments—by seeking solutions and learning from the process.
Key takeaway: Angela’s journey teaches us that true confidence in marketing operations comes from cultivating curiosity and resourcefulness. Marketers can future-proof their careers by learning to decompose complex issues and steadily work through them, which not only builds individual confidence but also enriches team dynamics.
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The Challenges and Opportunities of Numerous Migrations and Integrations
When Angela joined Upland Software, she found herself right in the middle of a tidal wave of acquisitions—14 in total during her time there. Each of these mergers, including one with her former company Qvidian, thrust her into a role that tested her skills and confidence. Her task was to merge different technologies and operational cultures into Upland’s existing framework, and in some cases she had just six months to make it happen. This period marked a significant leap in her career, filled with both challenges and substantial learning.
Angela’s experience at Upland was filled with managing logistics but it also presented an opportunity to shape the company’s future. With no formal marketing ops team in place and the function previously outsourced to an agency, Angela saw a gap. She proposed and established a dedicated team, shifting the company’s approach from external reliance to internal strength. This move was about building a foundation that was robust and could handle the complexities of future growth.
Each acquisition brought different practices and technologies to the table. Angela emphasized the importance of understanding the reasons behind each company’s methods. She saw this as more than just integrating new tools into Upland’s tech stack but a chance to think critically about what improvements these new elements could bring to the company.
Reflecting on her time at Upland, Angela highlights the formation of the marketing ops team as a key achievement. Her approach shows how tackling immediate challenges with a strategic mindset can lead to lasting advancements within a company.
Key takeaway: Dealing with acquisitions in martech requires strategic foresight and the courage to drive change. By viewing each migration and integration project as a stepping stone for improvement, marketers can capitalize on the opportunities these changes bring.
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Architecting a Framework for Platform Migrations
We asked Angela to unpack how her first few integration projects looked liked compared to her 13th and 14th acquisitions. She started by sharing details on the evolution of the process for merging data from new acquisitions into existing systems. Initially, the process was somewhat indiscriminate, with an emphasis on transferring as much data as possible, regardless of its immediate value or relevance.
Over time, Angela and her team developed a more nuanced strategy, likening it to “packing a suitcase, not the whole house.” This approach meant being selective about which data and tech assets to integrate, focusing on quality and relevance rather than quantity. They established clear criteria for what to include, such as activity levels and the strategic value of certain accounts or campaigns. This method allowed them to streamline the integration process and avoid cluttering their system with unnecessary data.
Naturally, when two companies merge, two tech stacks also need to merge. A key part of refining their approach involved making tough decisions about existing contracts and technologies. Angela encountered scenarios where newly acquired companies had recently entered into multi-year contracts for technologies that were not part of her company’s preferred tech stack. Deciding whether to honor these contracts, transition to preferred technologies immediately, or find a middle ground was a complex challenge that required strategic thinking and careful negotiation.
By the time of the later acquisitions, Angela’s strategy had matured significantly. The team had moved from a lenient approach to a more standardized method, focusing on aligning new acquisitions closely with operational standards. This shift not only improved the efficiency of the integrations but also ensured that new additions could seamlessly contribute to the company’s overall strategy.
Key takeaway: By focusing on what truly adds value and aligning new assets with established standards, marketers can enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of their tech stacks and data strategies. This strategic integration ensures smoother transitions during acquisitions and can significantly boost a company’s capabilities in the competitive martech landscape.
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How to Pick Between Similar Martech Solutions?
Angela often faced a common scenario: deciding whether the existing tools at Upland or those used by the acquired companies would best serve their future operations. This process was an opportunity to discover and potentially adopt superior solutions that could enhance their marketing operations.
During one memorable acquisition, Angela and her team encountered Kapost, a content creation platform. Unlike other tools that were set aside post-acquisition, Kapost stood out and was integrated into their tech stack in 2019. This decision highlights an essential aspect of acquisitions: they’re not just about consolidation but also about growth and improvement.
Despite the enthusiasm for integrating new tools, Angela faced practical challenges, such as budget constraints and the necessity of sticking to technologies that provided comprehensive solutions, not just nice-to-haves. This balancing act required making difficult decisions about which technologies to keep and which to let go, even if they seemed promising.
This experience was invaluable for Angela. It pushed her to continually evaluate what tools and processes would truly benefit their operations, teaching her to navigate the complexities of technology integration with a strategic eye.
Key takeaway: For marketers looking to enhance their career resilience, it’s crucial to be open to new technologies while also making strategic decisions that align with broader operational goals. This mindset fosters adaptability and strategic thinking—key traits for thriving in the evolving landscape of marketing technology.
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Self-taught Lego Blocks of a Successful Marketing Ops Career
Angela emphasizes the critical nature of a hands-on learning approach in marketing operations, particularly highlighting the immense growth and transformation the field has seen over the last decade. She points out that there’s no definitive playbook for the complex decisions mops professionals face, such as choosing the right martech tools or managing data transitions effectively. This uncertainty makes the role both challenging and exhilarating.
Reflecting on her own path, Angela shares that one key trait for success in this field is curiosity. She believes that having a logical mindset and the ability to problem-solve creatively are essential skills for anyone looking to excel in marketing ops. Angela often asks interviewees about the types of games they enjoy to gauge their problem-solving capabilities, drawing parallels between game strategies and professional skills. For instance, she compares the strategic thinking in Tetris to assembling a functional and efficient marketing stack.
Interestingly, Angela connects her previous experience as a dental assistant to her current role, underscoring the operational skills she honed while preparing dental operatories. This analogy beautifully illustrates how seemingly unrelated experiences can contribute valuable perspectives and skills to one’s role in marketing ops.
Despite the availability of more formal training courses in the field today, Angela still values on-the-job learning as the most effective way to build practical skills. She stresses that while courses can provide foundational knowledge, the real test comes from applying these skills in diverse, real-world scenarios where no two challenges are exactly alike.
Key takeaway: For those early in their marketing ops careers, Angela recommends fostering a strong sense of curiosity and a knack for logical thinking. These qualities, combined with a willingness to learn from every task and challenge, equip professionals to navigate the complexities of the field effectively. Embracing both structured learning and practical experience can create a robust foundation for a successful career in marketing operations.
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How do you Identify People who are Deeply Curious?
Angela underscores the challenge of identifying genuine curiosity during interviews, noting that appearances can sometimes be deceiving.
From her experience, Angela finds that one of the best ways to gauge an applicant’s curiosity is through their ability to narrate past problem-solving experiences. She appreciates when candidates discuss in detail the steps they took to address challenges, revealing not just the actions but also the thought processes behind them. This approach allows her to peek into how candidates engage with problems, whether they consider multiple solutions, and how they pivot upon hitting dead ends.
Angela encourages candidates to be forthcoming about their exploratory processes during interviews. She suggests they should share how they have researched solutions, perhaps even extending to self-driven education like studying vendor materials online. This not only demonstrates their curiosity but also their initiative and resourcefulness, traits highly valued in the dynamic field of marketing ops.
Through such narratives, candidates can effectively showcase their problem-solving skills and their enthusiasm for diving deep into challenges—qualities that are indicative of a high degree of professional curiosity. This storytelling method not only conveys their technical acumen but also personalizes their professional journey, making them more relatable and their capabilities more tangible.
Key takeaway: For marketing ops professionals aiming to stand out in interviews, it’s crucial to articulate your curiosity through detailed stories of past challenges and how you navigated them. This method demonstrates not only your problem-solving skills but also your proactive approach to learning and adaptation, key attributes for thriving in a constantly evolving field.
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Enhancing Marketing Ops with Strategic Martech Deployment
Angela explores the nuanced role of marketing technology in enhancing team performance, emphasizing that while tools can accelerate productivity and improve output quality, their effective deployment involves much more than just selection and use. She begins by addressing the common misconception that technology alone can solve operational challenges, stressing the importance of a strategic approach to technology adoption.
In her strategy, Angela highlights the initial steps of technology implementation, which include thorough research on available technologies, precise documentation of requirements, and rigorous product demos. Once a technology is chosen and implemented, the focus shifts to ensuring strategic alignment and comprehensive training across the team. This meticulous preparation is critical to leverage the full potential of any martech solution.
Moreover, Angela underlines the importance of continuous engagement with the technology post-implementation. She shares insights into her current practice of tapping into available resources and networks to understand best practices and potential pitfalls from existing users. This proactive engagement not only smooths the integration process but also enhances the team’s ability to leverage new tools effectively.
At the heart of successful martech deployment, according to Angela, lies a combination of curiosity, pragmatism, and a willingness to experiment without fear of making mistakes. She advocates for a phased approach to technology adoption, where initial phases focus on establishing stability before moving on to more advanced uses of the technology.
Key takeaway: Effective martech deployment extends beyond tool selection; it requires a comprehensive strategy that includes planning, alignment, and continuous learning. To maximize the benefits of new technologies, marketing ops professionals should foster a culture of curiosity and practical experimentation, progressively enhancing their team’s capabilities through thoughtful, phased integration.
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Navigating the Convergence of Martech and Analytics
Angela addresses the complex reality facing marketing operations professionals today, especially those venturing into roles where they are expected to manage both martech and analytics. She articulates the challenges of these ‘unicorn job descriptions’ that demand expertise in diverse areas within a single role, especially in mid-sized organizations.
Angela reflects on her experiences, underscoring that while it is possible for one person to handle both domains, it requires clear and reasonable expectations regarding deliverables and priorities. She introduces an often-overlooked concept: deprioritization. In her view, understanding what to deprioritize is as critical as knowing what to focus on, allowing for a more manageable workload and better resource allocation.
At Optimizely, where Angela currently contributes, the structure supports specialized roles within the marketing operations. This organization benefits from a go-to-market analytics team and centralized operations, which Angela finds advantageous. This setup not only facilitates better focus and specialization but also fosters deeper insights and more strategic engagement with leadership.
Angela’s team exemplifies an integrated approach where each member specializes in a distinct aspect of marketing operations, from data forecasting and budget planning to in-depth analytics. This specialization allows for more profound and strategic discussions with decision-makers, optimizing the impact of marketing efforts.
Key takeaway: For marketing operations professionals exploring roles that blend martech and analytics, it’s crucial to negotiate clear expectations and prioritize effectively. Specialization within team structures can enhance strategic input and operational efficiency, making it vital for companies to consider more integrated and supportive frameworks that allow for focused expertise in each area.
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Should Marketing Ops Report into Marketing or GTM?
Angela shares her experience transitioning from a traditional marketing operations role into a broader Go-To-Market (GTM) operations function at Optimizely. This shift, she notes, has not only altered her reporting structure but significantly enhanced her strategic involvement across various operational teams.
Reporting into GTM ops while maintaining a dotted line to the Chief Marketing Officer, Angela positions herself uniquely within the organization. This setup allows her to serve as a liaison, ensuring that marketing’s voice and needs are represented in broader operational discussions. She describes her role as being a steward for the marketing team, a critical bridge between marketing and other functions like sales and customer success operations.
One of the significant changes Angela highlights is the increased alignment and visibility she now enjoys with the entire operations team. Previously, her insight into projects was limited to a high level; now, she is actively involved in strategic discussions and decisions affecting the marketing department. This deeper involvement facilitates better communication and collaboration across departments, enhancing the overall operational efficiency.
Angela appreciates this structure for the closer integration it fosters among the teams, enabling a more unified approach to addressing company-wide challenges and opportunities. The ability to influence and contribute to a broader range of projects has not only enriched her professional experience but also bolstered the effectiveness of the marketing operations within the organization.
Key takeaway: Shifting to a GTM operations framework can significantly enhance the role of marketing operations leaders by expanding their influence and involvement in cross-functional teams. This approach not only ensures better alignment of strategies across departments but also enriches the collaborative dynamics, leading to more integrated and effective operational solutions.
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Martech Minimization for Smaller Teams
Angela delves into the intricacies of managing martech within smaller organizations, drawing from her experiences at Optimizely and contrasting them with smaller, scrappier startups. Her insights are rooted in a preference for minimalism in technology adoption, which she believes is essential for avoiding overly complex processes that can entangle marketing operations.
At Optimizely, Angela has observed a pattern where acquiring smaller companies often unveils unexpectedly robust tech stacks. This revelation challenges the notion that smaller teams inherently possess less sophisticated technology. Angela advocates for a strategic, simplified approach to building a tech stack, especially for smaller organizations that might not have extensive human resources or budgets comparable to larger firms like Optimizely.
Her advice is to start with the basics: identify the core needs and solve for those first. This foundational approach prevents the premature expansion of the tech stack, which can lead to complexity and inefficiency. Angela emphasizes the importance of a phased implementation plan, which she terms a “tech stack roadmap.” This roadmap should outline a “now, next, later” strategy, allowing organizations to scale their technology adoption in a manageable and strategic manner.
Angela also shares lessons from her past experiences, including insights from customer success (CS) leaders about the significance of a marketing ops roadmap. Such a roadmap is crucial for setting clear expectations within the business and aligning the tech stack’s growth with the organization’s overall goals.
Key takeaway: For smaller organizations aiming to optimize their martech stack, adopting a minimalistic approach can be highly effective. Start with the essential tools and build incrementally as needs evolve. Establishing a clear tech stack roadmap that outlines immediate and future priorities can help manage resources efficiently and set realistic expectations for growth and capability expansion. This strategy not only aligns with business goals but also ensures a scalable and flexible approach to technology adoption.
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Data Operations and Data Enrichment
Angela shares a comprehensive look into the evolution of data management at Optimizely, where she plays a pivotal role in overseeing data enrichment strategies. This process began with an existing structure termed the data stewardship team, which initially monitored data quality and began implementing data enrichment protocols within the sales operations framework.
Observing the demands and specific needs of different operational segments, Angela advocated for the division of the data stewardship team into two focused groups: one dedicated to marketing operations, emphasizing top-of-funnel data quality and enrichment, and the other catering to sales operations with a focus on later-stage data processes. This strategic split allowed for more specialized attention to the varying data needs at different stages of the customer journey.
Both teams collaborate closely, benefiting from a local culture highly conducive to team cooperation. This arrangement has proven effective in managing the comprehensive responsibilities associated with data operations, which include not only maintaining data quality and developing enrichment strategies but also selecting appropriate vendor partnerships for data acquisition.
The continuous nature of data management is a theme Angela emphasizes; it’s not a set-it-and-forget-it task. The teams are constantly evaluating new data, identifying trends, and refining processes to enhance integration and functionality across systems like Salesforce. This proactive approach ensures that data management strategies remain dynamic and responsive to emerging challenges and opportunities.
Key takeaway: Establishing specialized teams focused on distinct stages of data management can significantly enhance the quality and effectiveness of data processes. By separating top-of-funnel and later-stage data enrichment tasks, organizations like Optimizely ensure that each team can develop deep expertise and tailored strategies that meet specific operational needs.
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Balancing Technical Skills and People Management
Angela delves into what she terms the “engineering dilemma” in the realm of marketing operations, highlighting a critical challenge often faced in many tech-oriented fields: the transition of highly skilled individuals into leadership roles. This scenario is quite prevalent in marketing operations where technical acumen is invaluable, yet the shift to managing people can either markedly enhance or impede a team’s effectiveness.
The crux of the matter lies in the inherent skill sets of the individuals. Angela notes that not everyone is cut out for people management. Success in a leadership role doesn’t just require technical know-how; it demands a strong inclination towards leading and managing others—a distinct skill set that includes empathy, communication, and the ability to foster growth among team members.
For those with a blend of technical prowess and a genuine interest in leadership, the transition can be highly fruitful. Angela emphasizes that these leaders can leverage their deep technical understanding to guide their teams through complex challenges while simultaneously building their capabilities. This dual focus not only enhances the team’s operational efficiency but also ensures that team members are continually developing, which is essential for maintaining a competitive edge in marketing operations.
However, challenges arise when these technically adept individuals lack skills in crucial areas such as project management and prioritization. Without these, even the most technically proficient teams can struggle with coherence and alignment with broader business goals. Effective communication and setting clear priorities are therefore as critical as technical knowledge.
Key takeaway: The transition from technical expert to effective leader in marketing operations hinges on more than just technical skills. It requires a passion for leadership and a commitment to developing people management capabilities. For those aspiring to lead, focusing on enhancing both technical and soft skills is essential. This balanced development ensures not only personal career growth but also the advancement and cohesion of their teams.
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Integrating Personal Passions for Professional Success
Angela, a seasoned professional with a dynamic blend of roles—from a senior director in martech to a trained life coach and a fitness enthusiast—shares her perspective on maintaining happiness and success simultaneously. Her approach revolves around integrating her personal passions with her professional life, an equilibrium that many strive to achieve.
At the core of Angela’s philosophy is the belief that happiness is a choice, not merely a byproduct of external circumstances. This mindset is exemplified by her initiative on social platforms, where she fostered a community around the ethos of choosing joy. Angela’s page, “Be Happy, Stay Happy,” once amassed nearly a million followers, all united in the pursuit of happiness, underscoring the universal appeal and impact of her message.
Angela attributes her sustained happiness and professional vigor to her involvement in various activities that nourish her both physically and mentally. Whether it’s advocating for French Bulldogs, practicing yoga, or engaging in CrossFit, these pursuits are not mere distractions but integral elements that enrich her life and enhance her performance in the professional sphere.
Moreover, Angela emphasizes the importance of making a conscious effort to focus on the positive, even when negativity seems like the easier path. This proactive attitude towards happiness is not just about personal contentment but also about setting a powerful example for her teams and peers in the marketing technology sector.
Key takeaway: Happiness in one’s career stems from more than just professional achievements; it is deeply influenced by personal passions and a proactive choice to focus on positivity. Marketers can enhance their professional lives and inspire their teams by integrating personal interests and maintaining a positive outlook, thus fostering both personal well-being and career success.
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Episode Recap
Angela brings a fresh perspective to marketing operations, a key theme throughout the conversation is curiosity and how it helps boost your confidence and can be a key lego block to a successful career. What makes her a unique leader is her experience being part of over a dozen acquisitions which came with over a hundred platform migrations and integrations.
Instead of viewing system migrations and integrations as burdens, Angela sees them as prime opportunities to streamline and enhance operations. She leverages these changes to seamlessly integrate new technologies with established systems, aligning each step with the company’s broader goals. This mindset also guides her when choosing between similar martech tools, where she prioritizes long-term strategic fit over short-term gains.
Angela also underlines the importance of curiosity and logical thinking in building a durable career in marketing operations. These qualities enable professionals to unpack complex problems and forge dependable solutions, securing their roles in an evolving industry. She encourages showcasing this inquisitive nature during job interviews through stories that demonstrate proactive problem-solving and continuous learning.
At the strategic level, Angela champions a deliberate approach to martech deployment. It’s not merely about tool selection; it involves crafting a strategy that syncs with business goals and nurtures an environment ripe for continuous learning. With the convergence of martech and analytics, she stresses the importance of role clarity and priority setting to ensure that teams can deliver their best work.
For smaller teams, Angela advises starting with essential tools and expanding as needs develop. This measured approach helps manage resources efficiently, supports sustainable growth, and prevents tool overload.
Angela’s insights provide actionable guidance not just for personal skill enhancement but also for elevating the strategic impact of marketing operations teams. Her strategies demonstrate how adept adaptation to the nuances of the marketing world can drive significant professional and organizational advancement.
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Intro music by Wowa via Unminus
Cover art created with Midjourney (check out how)
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