106: Crissy Saunders: Funnel reporting, composable automation and the future of outbound

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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Crissy Saunders, CEO and Co-Founder at CS2.

Summary: Crissy takes us through the evolution from tactical management to strategic leadership, and the adaptation to changing marketing strategies. We discuss the significance of specialized platforms in marketing automation, the critical role of the sales funnel in revenue growth, the shift in email marketing towards ‘inbox influence’, and revitalizing outbound marketing strategies. This episode is a concise yet profound guide, offering actionable insights for martech professionals to navigate their careers and strategies effectively.

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About Crissy

  • Crissy started her career at Marketo and was quickly promoted to Marketing Ops manager where she led weekly training of internal users as well as lead management and technical execution for enterprise clients
  • She then moved over to Jive Software as Global Marketing Operations Manager and later Agari as a Sr Demand Gen manager 
  • She co founded Walkzee, an app that connected sheltered dogs with dog lovers who needed a walking buddy
  • She also co-founded CS2 with her husband Charlie, a martech agency that powers efficient and predictable revenue which has grown to over 15 team members and has served some of the coolest brands including Gong, Sendoso, Coursera and SalesLoft
  • She also finds time to be a podcast co-host, a women in revenue co-founder, a partner at MKT1 and an advisor for Syncari and Chilipiper

Crissy’s journey with her husband Charlie in the realm of marketing operations (martech ops) is a testament to how personal and professional relationships can synergize effectively. Their story began in a work environment, where they were assigned to different global roles. Crissy, based in Palo Alto, and Charlie, working from the EMEA office, quickly realized the need for a counterpart due to the time difference. This necessity sparked their collaboration.

Their work dynamic evolved as they discovered not only their professional compatibility but also a personal connection. This dual relationship blossomed into marriage, and after a year of living apart, they decided to venture into consulting. The transition from employees to business owners was facilitated by their solid professional background and the initial success in acquiring clients. This success was a result of their extensive network and the burgeoning field of marketing and sales operations, which at the time, was not as recognized as it is today.

Their business, initially named CS2 Marketing, evolved to focus on revenue operations, reflecting their diverse expertise beyond just marketing ops. They attribute their successful business partnership to aligning on business goals, leveraging each other’s strengths, and maintaining constant communication. Daily meetings help them stay connected and address priorities, a luxury not all business leaders share.

However, blending personal and professional life has its challenges. Discussions about the business often spill into their personal time, but they view this as a constructive process. Differences in opinion are not seen as conflicts but as opportunities for ‘storming’ – a phase in the McKinsey framework – leading to innovative solutions. This approach underscores their ability to balance their roles as business partners and life partners.

Key takeaway: Crissy and Charlie’s experience highlights the importance of communication, alignment of goals, and leveraging individual strengths in a business partnership. Their journey from colleagues to spouses and business partners demonstrates that professional and personal relationships can coexist and thrive, provided there’s a clear understanding of roles, constant communication, and a positive approach to resolving differences.

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Elevating from Tactical Manager to Strategic Leader in Martech

Crissy sheds light on a crucial challenge in the martech sector: the transition from a tactical, technology-focused manager to a strategic, business-minded director. In her view, the key to success in operations roles lies in balancing tactical knowledge with evolving strategic approaches. Understanding the operational landscape and keeping abreast of technological possibilities are vital for leaders in this field.

She emphasizes the importance of building a solid operational foundation rather than being mired in constant ‘firefighting’ mode. This foundation is crucial for moving beyond immediate tactical challenges and focusing on long-term strategic goals. Crissy advises against solely aiming for a position where one only manages people and devises strategies. A true leader in martech needs to grasp the practical aspects of the technology they oversee, even if not involved in the hands-on work.

Her tips for professionals aspiring to advance include aligning with business goals and key metrics, particularly those of the revenue team. She advises creating a flexible roadmap that accommodates unforeseen challenges while ensuring that the team remains focused on impactful, long-term projects. Moreover, she underscores the importance of data analysis and insights in driving operational efficiency and informing higher-level decisions.

Key takeaway: To progress from a tactical role to a strategic leadership position in martech, professionals need to balance their technical knowledge with an understanding of evolving business strategies. Building a solid operational foundation, aligning with key business goals, and emphasizing data analysis are essential steps. Success in this transition requires not just managing teams but also possessing a deep understanding of the technology and strategies that drive the business forward.

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The Challenges of Unbundling Marketing Automation Platforms

Crissy delves into the complexities of unbundling marketing automation platforms in the current martech environment. She identifies several issues that make this process challenging, particularly for established operations. The primary concerns include understaffing, high turnover, and the necessity for comprehensive training on these tools.

Marketing automation platforms offer a wide range of functionalities, which can be both a blessing and a curse. While they provide a one-stop solution for various needs, Crissy points out that many features often go unused, leading to questions about cost-effectiveness. However, the real worry lies in the management and upkeep of these systems. The existing tech debt in marketing automation and CRM platforms complicates the situation further.

Crissy suggests that while the idea of a more flexible, composable solution is appealing, especially for small and medium businesses (SMBs) focusing on profitability and investment appeal, the historical and operational challenges in B2B settings make it a difficult transition. She also highlights the potential benefits of having a single tool to master, simplifying contract management and expertise development within teams.

The future of marketing automation, according to Crissy, lies not in the immediate unbundling of these platforms but in the advancements and specialization of these tools. She emphasizes the need for marketing ops professionals to choose platforms based on their specific use cases. Her perspective is grounded in practicality, emphasizing the importance of proven, battle-tested solutions in the martech world. Yet, she acknowledges the need for forward-thinking and innovation, crucial for avoiding stagnation in an agency’s approach.

Crissy agrees that slower innovation in some legacy tools does open doors for newer, more agile platforms. The decision to switch, however, should hinge on a clear understanding of the benefits and potential drawbacks. She argues for simplicity over complexity, cautioning against the trap of over-complicating martech stacks.

Crissy’s stance is one of cautious optimism towards composable solutions. She’s open to exploring new options, especially in cases where legacy platforms cease to provide value. However, she emphasizes the importance of seeing more practical implementations and understanding the broader implications, such as the need for specialized skills in managing these new tools.

Key takeaway: The unbundling of marketing automation platforms is a complex challenge, hindered by operational issues like staffing, tech debt, and training needs. The current trend should focus on selecting specialized platforms that align with specific business needs, rather than pursuing a fragmented, composable approach that might complicate management and continuity. The future of marketing automation lies in advancements and specialization within these platforms, ensuring they remain efficient and effective for the evolving needs of businesses.

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The Vital Role of the Funnel in Revenue Growth Architecture

Crissy’s perspective on the significance of the funnel in the Revenue Growth Architecture (RGA) model is rooted in its ability to provide clear insights into the sales and marketing process. Despite the evolving terminology in martech, she emphasizes that the concept of a funnel, or lifecycle, remains central. CS2’s approach involves tracking the customer journey from being sales-ready to closing a deal, highlighting the importance of understanding repeat journeys and nurturing prospects.

The funnel is more than a simple tracking tool; it’s a framework for defining and refining the sales and marketing process. By establishing criteria for what makes a lead sales-ready, and identifying the critical touchpoints in the journey, businesses can gain deeper insights into their operations. Lead sourcing, channel optimization, and understanding the customer tipping point are integral parts of this process.

One of the key strengths of the funnel model, according to Crissy, is its ability to align marketing and sales teams. It provides a common language and set of metrics for both teams to work towards unified goals. This alignment extends beyond prospects to existing customers, offering a comprehensive view of the entire customer lifecycle.

However, Crissy notes a common shortfall in many organizations: the focus on superficial metrics like MQL volume, without delving into the deeper aspects of the funnel. She advocates for a more holistic approach, tracking the funnel all the way back to pipeline and revenue. This approach allows for more meaningful goal-setting and a better understanding of what truly influences a customer to become sales-ready.

Key takeaway: The funnel, or lifecycle, is a foundational element in revenue growth architecture, providing critical insights into the sales and marketing processes. Its strength lies in its ability to define stages, align teams, and track customer journeys, both for prospects and existing customers. To fully leverage the funnel’s potential, organizations must move beyond surface-level metrics and delve into the comprehensive journey from lead generation to revenue generation, thus enabling more strategic and informed decision-making.

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Mastering Funnel Reporting with Volume, Velocity, and Conversion

Crissy’s approach to funnel reporting in martech is a blend of innovation and practicality, particularly with the use of custom objects in Salesforce. This strategy addresses a common challenge in funnel management: disjointed reporting due to the separation of lead and contact data. By integrating these into a single custom object, CS2’s method eliminates the need for complex data joins, thereby streamlining the reporting process.

The concept of a custom object is pivotal in this context. In Salesforce, a custom object allows for the creation of a tailored structure that aligns with specific business processes. This setup offers a unified view of the customer journey, tracking from the ‘sales ready’ stage to deal closure. It consolidates various data points into a cohesive narrative, making it easier to analyze the sales process and identify key trends.

Crissy’s team utilizes a solution unique to their clients’ needs. This unmanaged package is not just a tool; it’s a bespoke solution that integrates seamlessly with a client’s existing Salesforce environment. The flexibility of this package means it can be tailored to each client’s specific sales and marketing processes, allowing for more accurate and relevant data capture and analysis.

The tracking methodology focuses on pivotal moments in the customer journey, capturing data like the lifecycle source, campaign details, and the ‘tipping point’ actions that lead a prospect to become sales-ready. This level of detail is crucial in understanding not just the final conversion but the entire journey a customer takes, offering insights into which campaigns and touchpoints are most effective.

Crissy’s emphasis on the three Vs – Volume, Velocity, and Conversion – is grounded in this detailed tracking. Volume offers insights into whether goals are being met, velocity highlights process bottlenecks, and conversion rates guide strategic planning. These metrics, when combined with the data from the custom object, provide a comprehensive view of the sales funnel’s effectiveness.

The custom object approach also facilitates better integration with BI tools, enhancing data visualization and dashboarding capabilities. This integration is crucial for businesses that rely heavily on data-driven decision-making. By having all the funnel data in one place, it becomes easier to draw meaningful insights and make informed decisions about marketing strategies and sales processes.

Key takeaway: Effective funnel reporting hinges on a tailored approach, leveraging custom objects for unified tracking and focusing on the ‘sales ready’ stage onward. This method offers clarity in conversion reporting and facilitates better business decisions. By focusing on volume, velocity, and conversion, businesses can identify bottlenecks, assess the effectiveness of campaigns, and plan future strategies more effectively. The simplicity of reporting and the alignment of sales and marketing processes are paramount for successful funnel management.

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Beyond Opens and Clicks: Why Deliverability Might Be Everything in Email Marketing

Crissy brings a fresh perspective to the challenge of email engagement tracking in the marketing world. The conversation pivots around the idea that traditional metrics like clicks and opens may not fully capture an email’s influence on customer behavior. This shift in thinking aligns with the changes in email privacy, like Apple Mail’s privacy updates, which have made traditional metrics like open rates less reliable.

The crux of the argument is that the mere presence of an email in a recipient’s inbox can impact their purchasing decisions, regardless of whether they open or click it. This “inbox influence” suggests that simply reminding customers of a brand’s existence could prompt actions later, even without direct engagement with the email itself. Crissy acknowledges the validity of this argument, which she has also discussed with clients, particularly in the context of rethinking how emails are sent and the kind of engagement they seek to elicit.

Crissy points out the importance of focusing on email content that educates or engages, rather than just driving clicks or downloads. This approach challenges the conventional wisdom in email marketing, where measurable actions like clicks have long been the primary indicators of success. She also emphasizes the need to monitor unsubscribe and spam report rates, which are becoming increasingly crucial as email providers tighten their spam thresholds.

However, Crissy identifies a key challenge in adopting this broader view of email influence: ensuring that emails are reaching the right audience. In her experience, many companies send emails to large numbers of recipients who may not be relevant or interested, muddying the data and making it hard to gauge true engagement or influence. This indiscriminate approach to email marketing undermines the ability to accurately measure the impact of an email campaign.

Key takeaway: The traditional approach to email engagement tracking, focusing on opens and clicks, is being challenged by changes in email privacy and user behavior. The concept of “inbox influence” suggests that the presence of an email in an inbox can impact customer behavior, beyond measurable actions. Marketers should focus on creating engaging, educational content and closely monitor unsubscribe and spam rates. 

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Revitalizing Outbound Marketing Strategies in a Changing Landscape

Crissy sheds light on the evolving challenges and opportunities in outbound marketing. With the increasing ineffectiveness of traditional methods like cold emailing and calling, she advocates for a shift in strategy, focusing on more personalized and research-driven approaches.

Crissy highlights the changing dynamics in email marketing, particularly with the rise of privacy changes and the declining reliability of traditional metrics like open rates. She questions the effectiveness of outbound tactics in the SDR world, suggesting that many teams might not be fully aware of their deliverability issues. This scenario underscores the urgency for marketers to rethink their strategies.

The key, according to Crissy, is to empathize with the prospect’s experience. She urges marketers to consider how often they themselves have been influenced by a cold email or call. Her team at CS2 focuses on business and marketing strategies that are more about engaging the prospect through targeted, relevant content rather than just pushing for a response.

Crissy proposes a more integrated role for SDRs, suggesting that they function more like marketers. This approach involves thorough research on potential clients, understanding their needs, and engaging with them in communities or through social media. She emphasizes the importance of staying updated with contact information, as data can quickly become outdated.

The effectiveness of this approach can be amplified by high-touch marketing efforts, where SDRs are equipped with the right resources and training to engage meaningfully with prospects. She likens this to grassroots marketing efforts, where understanding the prospect’s context and needs leads to more effective engagement.

Key takeaway: The traditional outbound marketing model, heavily reliant on cold emails and calls, is becoming less effective in the modern marketing world. To adapt, marketers should focus on more personalized, research-driven approaches, engaging prospects where they are most active. SDRs should be empowered to act as extensions of the marketing team, using up-to-date data and engaging in communities and social media platforms. This strategy not only improves brand recognition and awareness but also aligns marketing efforts more closely with the needs and behaviors of potential clients.

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Finding Balance and Success in a Multifaceted Career

Crissy, wearing multiple hats as a mother, CEO, co-founder, advisor, and podcast co-host, offers valuable insights into achieving happiness and success in a busy career. Her approach challenges the conventional notion of work-life balance, emphasizing instead the importance of setting boundaries and prioritizing ruthlessly.

Crissy’s perspective on balance is grounded in realism and self-awareness. She advises against succumbing to external pressures, such as the need for a side hustle or constant networking. Instead, she suggests that the most effective networking often happens by excelling in one’s current role. Building strong relationships in-house can lead to more opportunities and connections than external efforts.

At the core of her strategy is a simple yet effective tool: a post-it note listing her priorities. With ‘family first’ at the top, Crissy ensures that her personal life is not overshadowed by her professional responsibilities. This clear hierarchy of priorities helps her make decisions that align with her values and goals.

Her routine includes waking up early for a workout before her children wake up, a practice that keeps her mentally and physically sharp. This dedication to personal well-being is a key component of her success. Crissy has learned to be efficient with her time, especially now that family responsibilities demand a more structured schedule. She has honed the skill of maximizing productivity within limited timeframes.

Weekends are reserved for personal time, a boundary she maintains unless work demands are exceptionally high. This approach allows her to recharge and maintain a sense of balance despite her demanding schedule.

Key takeaway: Success in a multifaceted career is less about achieving a perfect work-life balance and more about setting clear boundaries and priorities. Focusing on excelling in one’s current role can be more beneficial than external networking efforts. Incorporating routines that prioritize personal well-being is essential, as is being ruthlessly efficient with time. By maintaining these practices, it is possible to navigate a complex career landscape while staying happy and fulfilled.

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Episode Recap

Our journey begins with Crissy and Charlie’s unique partnership, blending marriage and business in a seamless narrative. Their story is not just about love and entrepreneurship; it’s a masterclass in communication, goal alignment, and leveraging individual strengths. This partnership serves as a compelling example of how personal and professional worlds can coexist, thrive, and mutually enrich each other, emphasizing the importance of clarity in roles and positive conflict resolution.

We then explored the transition from tactical management to strategic leadership in martech. This critical shift is marked by expanding one’s skills to encompass a deep understanding of evolving business strategies and data-driven decision-making. It’s about building a robust operational foundation while keeping an eye on the technological and strategic drivers of the business, thus marking the path from managing teams to leading innovations.

In discussing the evolution of marketing automation platforms, we recognized the challenges in unbundling traditional systems. The key lies in embracing specialized platforms tailored to specific business needs, signifying a move towards targeted advancements and specializations in an ever-evolving business landscape.

The sales funnel’s role in revenue growth architecture emerged as a pivotal theme, underscoring the need to delve beyond surface metrics into the comprehensive customer journey. This approach fosters more strategic and informed decision-making, blending the tactical aspects of sales with the strategic objectives of marketing.

Email marketing’s shifting dynamics, with a focus on ‘inbox influence’ rather than traditional metrics like opens and clicks, highlighted the importance of adapting strategies in the face of changing privacy norms and user behaviors. This shift encourages creating engaging content that subtly influences customer behavior and closely monitoring email performance metrics for deeper insights.

Lastly, the conversation turned to revitalizing outbound marketing strategies in a landscape where traditional tactics are losing ground. The future is painted with personalized, research-driven approaches, where SDRs evolve into extensions of the marketing team, enhancing brand recognition and aligning marketing efforts with customer behavior and needs.

In summary, this episode presents a well-rounded narrative for martech professionals, weaving personal experiences with professional strategies, offering actionable advice for those looking to navigate the complex dynamics of martech with success and fulfillment.

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Intro music by Wowa via Unminus
Cover art created with Midjourney (check out how)

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