110: Josh Kim: Notion’s Growth Marketing Lead on choosing and democratizing experiments and the marketer’s role in a growth pod

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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Josh Kim, Growth Marketing Lead at Notion.

We’re exploring Youtube this year if this is your jam, watch the full episode below or continue with our usual GPT-powered summary and key takeaways.

Summary: Josh helped us elevate growth marketing from scattered tactics to a unified framework, emphasizing data-informed decisions, teamwork, and a cohesive vision. He detailed the significance of a marketer’s adaptable role in a growth pod, the value of strategic martech use, and the power of experimentation in understanding user motivation. By highlighting the synergy between community, product innovation, and growth, alongside the importance of continuous learning through programs like Reforge, Josh provided a compact yet rich guide for marketers seeking sustainable growth.

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About Josh

  • Josh started his career in strategic planning and analysis before moving to growth product management
  • He was the second Growth PM hire at Inflection – an employment screening startup where he worked on their Conversion Optimization team
  • He then moved over to Marketing Operations at Credit Karma and later became the first hire on their Growth and Engagement team where he owned implementation and testing focusing on MAUs
  • Josh then spent 3 years at Spotify where he held different Growth Marketing roles owning different products, from Consumer to Creator and finally marketplace 
  • Most recently he’s moved over to Notion first focusing on Growth, lifecycle and product marketing and recently leading the Growth Marketing team
  • Josh also advises startups within the First Round Capital portfolio as an Expert in Residence

Harnessing Growth Marketing Insights from Top Tech Brands

Josh shares invaluable lessons from his journey through renowned tech companies, spotlighting the essence of growth marketing and brand development. At the heart of his experience is a nuanced understanding of how to blend growth strategies with brand identity, creating a compelling narrative that resonates with users and drives business expansion.

Starting at Credit Karma, Josh dove deep into the mechanics of marketing, where he honed his skills in crafting campaigns that not only speak to the product but do so with personality and flair. This foundational stage was crucial, laying the groundwork for his growth marketing philosophy: combining effective brand communication with a genuine connection to the audience.

His tenure at Spotify offered a masterclass in synchronizing brand and growth efforts to fuel business scalability. Josh highlights the Spotify Wrapped campaign as a quintessential example of this harmony. This initiative wasn’t just a branding triumph; it was a data-driven strategy that leveraged insights to engage both creators and consumers, showcasing the power of integrating brand narratives with growth objectives.

At Notion, leading the growth marketing team, Josh finds himself among a cadre of exceptional talent, all united in their mission to make tool making ubiquitous. This role has underscored the importance of working on products that strike a chord with their users. Notion’s success, according to Josh, lies in its ability to articulate a brand voice that appeals to a wide array of communities and individual users alike, demonstrating the profound impact of aligning product utility with user passion.

Josh’s reflections from his experiences at Credit Karma, Spotify, and Notion reveal a consistent theme: the significance of building a brand that not only stands out but also genuinely connects with its audience. This connection fosters an approachability and loyalty that transcends the traditional boundaries of product marketing, turning ordinary users into passionate advocates.

Key Takeaway: Josh’s experience underscores the critical role of brand marketing in growth. By weaving together insightful data, compelling narratives, and genuine consumer engagement, companies can cultivate a loyal user base and drive sustainable growth. This approach not only elevates the product but also cements the brand’s place in the hearts and minds of its audience, proving that at the intersection of growth and brand, remarkable business success can be achieved.

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Sunsetting Growth Hacking… Once and for All

Josh reflects on the journey of growth marketing from its “growth hacking” days to its current multidisciplinary nature, offering a nuanced perspective on how the field has matured to become an integral part of strategic business development. His insights shed light on the transformation of growth tactics from quick fixes to foundational strategies rooted in data and collaborative team efforts.

Growth hacking, once the buzzword of startup culture, aimed to shortcut success with clever tricks and shortcuts. Josh candidly shares his discomfort with the term now, emphasizing that true growth cannot be “hacked.” Instead, it requires a solid foundation based on first principles and a deep understanding of data to drive sustainable progress. This shift signifies a move from seeking immediate gains to establishing strategies that ensure long-term success.

At the core of successful growth teams today is their multidisciplinary composition. Josh advocates for the inclusion of growth marketers directly within product teams to facilitate faster, more impactful decisions. This approach, pioneered during his tenure at Credit Karma and Spotify, has proven highly effective, especially at Notion, where growth marketers play a pivotal role in most product groups. This setup fosters an environment where different perspectives converge, leading to more holistic and successful growth strategies.

Josh outlines three critical elements that define a strong growth team: 

  1. A shared North Star: A unified goal or metric provides clarity and focus, guiding the team through the myriad of options and strategies available.
  2. Clear roles and responsibilities: Clear delineation of roles allows team members to leverage their strengths and address weaknesses collaboratively.
  3. A commitment to strong fundamentals: Adherence to growth fundamentals, including rapid iteration and rigorous test hygiene, ensures that strategies are both effective and sustainable.

Key Takeaway: The evolution of growth marketing from opportunistic “hacking” to a strategic, multidisciplinary approach highlights the importance of foundational data analysis, cross-functional collaboration, and a clear, shared vision for success. Josh’s experience illustrates that the most effective growth strategies emerge from teams that integrate diverse expertise, focus on fundamental principles, and align around a common objective, paving the way for sustainable business growth.

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Defining the Marketer’s Role in a Growth Pod

Josh provides a compelling narrative on tailoring the growth marketer’s role within a team or “pod” to enhance effectiveness and foster innovation. His approach underscores the importance of matching a growth marketer’s strengths with the team’s needs, creating a dynamic synergy that propels both strategy and execution forward.

At the heart of Josh’s strategy is the nuanced matchmaking between the team’s requirements and the growth marketer’s expertise. This process begins with a thorough assessment of both the team’s strengths and gaps and the growth marketer’s skill set. Whether it’s proficiency in paid ads, data analytics, email marketing, or lifecycle management, the goal is to identify where the growth marketer can add the most value. This bespoke alignment ensures that the growth marketer’s contribution is both impactful and complementary to the team’s existing capabilities.

Josh’s personal experience at Spotify serves as a prime example of this approach in action. Identifying his strengths in data and analytics, lifecycle email engagement, and experiment design, Josh integrated himself into a pod that benefited from these specific skills. By working closely with a data engineer, Josh leveraged his analytical expertise to enhance test hygiene and experiment design, ensuring robust and scalable solutions. His ability to also contribute to email marketing strategies further exemplified the multifaceted role a growth marketer can play within a team, blurring the lines between traditional roles to achieve comprehensive, agile results.

This flexible yet structured approach to defining roles within a pod emphasizes the value of cross-functional collaboration and shared expertise. By clearly delineating responsibilities while encouraging overlapping contributions, teams can accelerate progress and achieve more nuanced, data-driven outcomes. Josh’s story illustrates how growth marketers can serve as pivotal connectors within a pod, bridging gaps and fostering a culture of rapid iteration and holistic strategy development.

Key Takeaway: The ideal role of a growth marketer in a team pod is fluid and adaptable, tailored to both the marketer’s strengths and the team’s needs. Josh’s experience highlights the power of strategic role definition, where data analytics, lifecycle management, and collaborative flexibility converge to drive innovative growth strategies. This approach not only maximizes the growth marketer’s impact but also enhances the team’s overall efficacy, setting a new standard for multidisciplinary team collaboration in growth marketing.

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The Highs and Lows of Growth Marketing Experiments

Josh delves into the realm of memorable growth marketing experiments, offering a candid glimpse into both the thrilling successes and the unforeseen setbacks that have marked his career. His journey through initiatives at Spotify, Credit Karma, and Notion underscores the unpredictable nature of growth marketing and the valuable lessons learned from each venture.

One notable experiment involved the integration of a startup designed as a music marketplace, akin to Fiverr or Upwork, for musicians. Despite the community’s enthusiasm and strong brand advocacy, a referral program designed to harness this grassroots support fell flat. The expectation was that the program would naturally flourish, propelled by the community’s passion.

However, the outcome was startlingly different, with minimal uptake and engagement. This setback revealed crucial insights into referral program dynamics—specifically, the importance of crafting compelling incentives and the timing of their value to the user. Josh’s reflection on this experience highlights the necessity of a compelling offer at the core of referral strategies, a lesson that now informs his approach to designing such programs.

On the flip side, a significant triumph emerged from an experiment at Notion focusing on web optimization. By reevaluating the language used on the website’s call-to-action (CTA), specifically changing “Contact Sales” to “Request a Demo,” Josh witnessed a remarkable improvement in pipeline growth and, ultimately, revenue. This seemingly simple adjustment underscored the power of words and the impact of clear, inviting CTAs on user engagement and conversion. It served as a reminder that sometimes, the most straightforward tests can yield the most profound results, encouraging a mindset of continuous experimentation, even with the basics.

Key Takeaway: There’s beauty in embracing both the successes and the surprises in experimentation. By understanding the nuances of user engagement, the critical role of compelling incentives, and the impact of clear communication, marketers can refine their approaches to drive meaningful growth. Growth marketing is packed with iteration, where every experiment, regardless of its immediate outcome, contributes to a deeper understanding of how to connect with and motivate your audience.

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Josh offers a deep dive into the critical process of selecting tests for growth marketing initiatives, blending data analysis with intuition to navigate experimentation. This dual approach underscores the importance of both quantitative rigor and qualitative insights in crafting effective growth strategies.

The starting point often involves a meticulous breakdown of website metrics, such as monthly traffic, impressions, click-through rates, and conversion rates. By applying potential uplifts to these metrics, Josh and his team can transform the selection process into a mathematical equation, prioritizing tests based on their potential impact on signups and revenue. This methodical approach allows for a clear, numbers-driven strategy to test prioritization, offering a roadmap for action based on quantifiable potential outcomes.

However, Josh acknowledges the inherent limitations of data availability, especially in startup environments where comprehensive metrics may not be readily accessible. In these scenarios, intuition and experience play pivotal roles. The art of test selection, in the absence of perfect data, relies on an informed understanding of user behavior, historical performance, and strategic business objectives. Factors such as the recency of page updates, user traffic patterns, and perceived value of different website components guide the decision-making process, filling the gaps left by incomplete data.

This nuanced strategy, blending data-driven logic with intuitive insight, reflects the multifaceted nature of growth marketing. It highlights the importance of adaptability and a deep understanding of one’s business and audience. By balancing these elements, marketers can navigate the complexities of test selection, identifying opportunities for impactful experimentation even when faced with data constraints.

Key Takeaway: Selecting the right tests in growth marketing is both a science and an art, requiring a delicate balance between rigorous data analysis and intuitive understanding. Josh’s approach exemplifies how marketers can navigate this dual path, leveraging available data to make informed decisions while also relying on intuition when data is scarce. This strategy ensures that each test is not only grounded in logical expectations of success but also informed by a deep, nuanced understanding of the business and its users, maximizing the potential for meaningful growth impacts.

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Notion’s Martech and Data Stack that Power’s Growth

Josh’s intricate dive into the lifecycle marketing journey at Notion illuminates the multifaceted approach required to drive top-of-funnel growth effectively. He underscores the critical role of selecting the right martech stack and harmonizing it with a well-orchestrated process and roadmap. This journey, marked by trial, error, and eventual success, offers a comprehensive blueprint for leveraging technology and process to fuel growth initiatives.

Initially tasked with leading lifecycle at Notion, Josh faced the foundational challenge of data accessibility and utility—a common hurdle in lifecycle marketing. The early strategy hinged on establishing a robust data pipeline to empower timely and relevant user engagement. This endeavor laid the groundwork for evolving Notion’s lifecycle marketing into a dynamic and responsive engine.

The transformation journey was characterized by the strategic adoption of tools like Segment and Census, facilitating seamless data integration and enabling the marketing team to self-serve crucial data for targeting without bottleneck dependencies on engineering resources. Furthermore, the integration with Statsig provided a self-sufficient framework for experiment setup and analysis, significantly accelerating the experimentation cycle.

A pivotal element in enhancing shipping velocity—a cornerstone of growth marketing success—was streamlining processes and minimizing dependencies. By automating targeting processes, simplifying experiment analysis, and externalizing template creation and content generation, Notion’s team managed to significantly scale their experiment throughput. From a modest beginning of a few experiments per quarter, the team catapulted to executing nearly 100 experiments annually, with a notable success rate that amplified Notion’s growth trajectory.

This journey from a constrained setup to a high-velocity experimentation engine underscores the critical balance between leveraging cutting-edge martech tools and refining internal processes. Josh’s narrative vividly illustrates how a strategic, tool-enabled approach, coupled with streamlined processes and cross-functional collaboration, can transform lifecycle marketing into a powerhouse of growth and insights.

Key Takeaway: The evolution of Notion’s lifecycle marketing efforts, as led by Josh, highlights the indispensable role of a cohesive tech stack, data-driven processes, and an agile approach to experimentation in driving growth. By embracing technological solutions and refining operational processes, Notion managed to enhance its experimental capacity and efficacy, setting a benchmark for growth marketing success in the tech landscape. This case study exemplifies the synergy between technology, process, and strategic vision in crafting a formidable growth marketing framework.

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Leveraging Martech for Enhanced Team Productivity

Josh delves into the transformative potential of martech tools in augmenting team processes, emphasizing the importance of automation in streamlining tasks and fostering strategic thinking. His insights shed light on the balance between harnessing the power of technology and avoiding tool overload, guiding teams toward a more efficient and thoughtful approach to growth marketing.

The proliferation of low-code and no-code solutions is revolutionizing the way knowledge workers operate but the challenge is in navigating the galaxy of of tools without succumbing to the paralysis of choice. Josh’s principle is straightforward yet profound: if a task recurs with any frequency, chances are there’s a tool or process to automate it. This philosophy encourages a critical examination of daily routines, urging marketers to identify opportunities for automation that can liberate mental space for deeper, more impactful work.

Josh champions the use of platforms like Notion for their ability to automate repetitive tasks through integrations and databases, exemplifying how strategic tool adoption can significantly reduce task overload. This approach not only enhances productivity but also empowers team members to allocate their time and resources more effectively towards strategic initiatives.

Moreover, Josh highlights the critical evaluation of one’s workflow to pinpoint tasks ripe for automation. By embracing a select few tools that align with their needs and learning to leverage them fully, individuals and teams can achieve remarkable efficiencies. This methodology transcends the simple adoption of new technologies, advocating for a thoughtful integration of tools that genuinely add value and accelerate workflow.

Key Takeaway: The judicious application of martech tools can dramatically increase productivity and strategic focus within growth marketing teams. Josh’s advice to assess and automate repetitive tasks serves as a valuable strategy for marketers looking to enhance their operational efficiency. By embracing targeted automation and carefully chosen tools, teams can shed unnecessary task overload and devote more energy to high-level thinking and growth initiatives, embodying the principle that while tools don’t make the marketer, they can significantly amplify their effectiveness.

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Unveiling Strategic Martech Gems Hidden Within

Josh’s discussion provides a wealth of insights for growth teams navigating the complexities of martech, particularly those with constrained resources. His experiences across high-profile tech companies reveal a deep understanding of how to harness technology and strategic thinking to foster significant growth, irrespective of budget size or team scale.

Josh emphasizes the crucial role of automation in growth marketing. Identifying tasks that are repetitive and automating them can drastically improve efficiency, allowing teams to focus on more strategic and impactful activities. Tools like Notion, which offer robust automation capabilities, exemplify how technology can reduce task overload, facilitating a shift towards deeper, more strategic work.

Reflecting on martech evolution within organizations, Josh outlines two distinct approaches: top-down and bottoms-up. Spotify’s Wrapped campaign serves as a prime example of the top-down approach, where leadership-driven investment in martech mobilizes substantial resources towards achieving a singular, impactful vision. On the other hand, Notion’s lifecycle marketing success stories demonstrate the effectiveness of a bottoms-up approach, highlighting how impactful results can stem from creativity and incremental improvements, even in the absence of large initial investments.

For growth marketers in startups or low-tech environments, Josh’s advice is invaluable. He suggests that impactful growth can be achieved by strategically utilizing martech tools, automating where possible, and continuously proving the value of these efforts to facilitate further investment. This approach underscores the importance of adaptability, strategic tool use, and the power of demonstrating tangible results to drive growth.

Key Takeaway: Growth marketing doesn’t have to be a function of resource abundance when the focus is on strategic tool application and process optimization. For low-budget or one-person growth teams, focusing on automation, leveraging strategic martech tools, and demonstrating impact are key to maximizing efficiency and setting the foundation for scalable growth. This strategy highlights that with the right approach, even teams with limited resources can achieve substantial growth by making strategic martech investments and optimizing their processes for maximum impact.

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Spinning Community Threads into Product-Led Growth

Josh sheds light on the pivotal role that community and product play in the growth strategies of Notion and Spotify, offering a glimpse into the dynamics that fuel their expansion. His insights reveal the intricacies of growth, debunking the notion that it’s a straightforward journey and highlighting the critical impact of engaged communities and innovative product development.

At Notion, the community has been a cornerstone of its growth narrative, a factor that significantly influenced Josh’s decision to join the team. Discovering the depth of Notion’s community support through platforms like Reddit showcased the product’s ability to inspire fanaticism among its users. From enthusiasts getting Notion-themed tattoos to entrepreneurs building businesses around Notion templates, the community’s passion for productivity and the platform itself is palpable. This organic, grassroots community engagement, initially managed by a small team, has blossomed into a diverse ecosystem comprising ambassadors, champions, consultants, and student leaders, each contributing uniquely to Notion’s growth.

These community segments serve varied roles but collectively fuel the lifeblood of Notion’s product evolution and market penetration. Their involvement spans product launches, beta testing, and feedback loops that directly influence development priorities. Moreover, by advocating for Notion and fostering sub-communities, they extend the product’s reach, cultivating a sense of ownership and partnership in Notion’s success.

Spotify’s growth model shares similarities, notably leveraging community engagement and product innovation to solidify its market presence. The platform’s annual Wrapped campaign, for example, epitomizes how product features can galvanize community interaction and brand loyalty. By celebrating user preferences and listening habits, Spotify not only enhances user experience but also encourages community members to share their musical year in review, effectively turning users into brand ambassadors.

Key Takeaway: The strategic focus on community and product at Notion and Spotify underscores the multifaceted nature of growth. Engaging with and empowering a passionate community can transform users into active participants in a brand’s evolution, driving organic growth and fostering a deep connection with the product. This approach, coupled with relentless product innovation and responsiveness to user feedback, creates a dynamic ecosystem where growth is fueled by both the company’s offerings and its user base’s enthusiasm. As Josh’s experiences illustrate, the symbiosis between community and product is not just beneficial but essential for sustained growth and market relevance.

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Reforging Growth: The Impact of Specialized Learning

Josh’s reflection on his experience with the Reforge retention and engagement cohort course underscores the transformative power of structured learning in the realm of growth marketing. His journey through the course not only equipped him with the necessary vocabulary and foundational knowledge but also crystallized his understanding of growth as a systematic and strategic function.

Before participating in Reforge, Josh, like many growth practitioners, possessed the raw components of growth strategy—intuition about user engagement, top-of-funnel tactics, and channel optimization. However, the course acted as a catalyst, transforming these disparate elements into a cohesive framework. This structured approach to growth enabled Josh to think about and execute strategies more effectively, leveraging metrics, user segmentation, and lifecycle stages to drive meaningful results.

The curriculum’s breadth, covering everything from business economics to specialized topics like product marketing and brand strategy, provided Josh with a comprehensive growth toolkit. This knowledge base proved invaluable, allowing him to navigate the complexities of growth marketing with confidence and precision. Furthermore, the course’s emphasis on systematic analysis and strategic thinking resonated with Josh’s own experiences, reinforcing the importance of a structured approach to growth.

Key Takeaway: Josh’s endorsement of the Reforge course highlights the critical role of continuous learning and professional development in the field of growth marketing. By arming practitioners with the tools, terminology, and frameworks necessary to approach growth systematically, specialized courses like Reforge offer a pathway to accelerated career advancement and enhanced strategic capabilities. For those looking to deepen their understanding of growth mechanics and elevate their strategic thinking, investing in structured learning programs can provide the clarity and confidence needed to drive impactful growth initiatives.

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Finding Balance in the Growth Marketing Marathon

Josh’s perspective on achieving happiness and success in his career offers a refreshing take on the long-term journey of professional growth and personal fulfillment. His approach emphasizes the importance of pacing oneself, seeking out energizing activities, and maintaining a focus on both personal and professional development.

Understanding that a career is more akin to a marathon than a sprint provides a framework for resilience and long-term planning. This mindset encourages patience, persistence, and the acceptance of the fact that true success and satisfaction come from sustained effort over time rather than short-term achievements. It’s a reminder that the path to professional fulfillment is a long one, filled with both challenges and rewards, and that maintaining a steady pace is crucial for long-term success and well-being.

Josh also highlights the significance of identifying and pursuing aspects of one’s role that offer the most energy and fulfillment. For him, focusing on growth and development, both for his team and in tackling complex growth challenges, provides a source of motivation and satisfaction. This targeted approach not only enhances his professional effectiveness but also contributes to his overall happiness by aligning his daily activities with his passions and interests.

Key Takeaway: Achieving happiness and success in your career requires a combination of long-term perspective with a focus on activities that bring personal fulfillment. By treating your career like a marathon, you can set a pace for sustainable growth, by focusing on areas of work that energize and inspire you. Josh is a testament to this blueprint.

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Episode Recap

Josh helped us elevate growth from a bag of mixed tactics to a holistic, strategic framework that leverages data, cross-functional teamwork, and a shared vision for success. He unpacked the nuanced role of the growth marketer within a team pod—dynamic, adaptable, and driven by a strategic understanding of data analytics and lifecycle marketing.

He walked us through how he embraced both the highs and lows of experimentation, with each trial contributing to a richer understanding of engaging and motivating users. The strategic application of martech and data tools exemplifies how operational efficiency and strategic vision can converge to create a formidable growth framework. More than just applicable for growth, Josh advocates for leveraging martech for productivity and to streamline operations and focus on high-impact initiatives.

A theme throughout our chat is the symbiotic relationship between community, product, and growth. Josh explained how engaging with a passionate user base and fostering a responsive, innovative product ecosystem can drive organic growth and create a vibrant community of advocates.

We asked Josh for his tips on professional development and the role Reforge played in accelerating his career in growth. His commitment to learning and adaptation not only enriched his toolkit but also ensured his skills remained fresh and relevant.

Josh doesn’t just unpack the mechanics of growth marketing; he offers a panoramic view of its evolution from tactical experiments that hinge on data, technology, community, and continuous learning. For marketers aspiring to drive sustainable growth, Josh’s journey provides both inspiration and a practical framework for navigating martech.

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Intro music by Wowa via Unminus
Cover art created with Midjourney (check out how)

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